The following blog post is a time-stamped, full transcript of Bob Preston’s interview of Gunilla DeSanto of Deluxe Decor By Design. The episode was recorded June 27, 2019 and published on the Property Management Brainstorm Podcast. The audio version of this podcast can be found at this link of the North County Property Group website, as Episode 18- Creating the Vacation Rental Experience: Property Management Brainstorm Show.
Bob Preston: 01:11 Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Property Management Brainstorm Podcast. I'm Bob Preston, your host of the show, broadcasting from our studio at North County Property Group in Del Mar, California. In today's robust sharing economy, the rental market demand for short term rentals, often referred to as vacation rentals, has never been higher. Sites like AirBnb and VRBO have tripled the available short-term inventory just over the past few years. Short term rentals are unique and that they're always rented as furnished units where the owner provides all of the amenities including furniture, kitchen items, linens and towels, and they often get asked by our clients, how do I make my vacation rental pop or how will my home stand out on the listings on AirBnb. Well, our guest today on the show will help answer those questions for us. Gunilla DeSanto is a certified interior decorator and designer as well as a certified professional home stager and her company Deluxe Decor by Design, specializes in creating luxury and relaxing vacation rental experiences in the homes of her clients. Well, Gunilla thanks for being here today.
Gunilla DeSanto: 02:20 Well thank you, Bob, for having me on as your guest. I'm very excited to here.
Bob Preston: 02:22 Absolutely. It's funny, we were introduced by my son, Brett, who works here at North County Property Group as our Biz Dev Manager and I believe you two met through a Carmel Valley networking group. Is that, is that right?
Gunilla DeSanto: 02:34 Yeah, that is correct.
Bob Preston: 02:35 Oh, that's funny. You know, small world and he was telling me about your meeting and as he was speaking about you, I thought, wow, what a great podcast episode because you fit right into our business. And so, I thought it would be fun and super educational for our listeners to have you on the show. So, you know, maybe for starters you could just tell us more about yourself and your company.
Gunilla DeSanto: 02:54 Sure. Okay. So firstly, a little bit about my background. I've always had a passion for interior design and it's in my blood. My dad was a structural engineer and um, he also loved to build. So, in our summer home that we had in Sweden, I actually helped him do some building, but it was at that time that I realized.
Bob Preston: 03:14 Are you Swedish by origin?
Gunilla DeSanto: 03:15 I sure am. I sure I am. And it was at that time that I've got bitten by the interior design bug. I just fell in love with all like the finishes, like painting and colors and fabrics and flooring and all that kind of stuff. So, but, uh, fast forward to adulthood. And um, I ended up working for many years in marketing and branding and design for top brands in music and film and television. And branding is all about connecting with your consumers and clients to get them to either buy your product or to hire you to provide your service. Right? And so that is a very big component of what I do now.
Bob Preston: 03:58 Oh, fantastic.
Gunilla DeSanto: 03:59 So during my a career in TV, I spent many years doing interior projects in my own home or my, our own homes, I should say multiple ones. And a while I was climbing that corporate ladder. Well, eventually I found out that that ladder was actually leaning up against the wrong building. So, I decided to abandon entertainment and finally embraced my true life's passion and go into interior design full-time.
Bob Preston: 04:23 Oh how interesting is that. So, what was, what did you do in TV?
Gunilla DeSanto: 04:26 I worked in a creative capacity doing a lot of branding for channels like Sci-Fi Channel. I've worked with networks like USA networks and Showtime and, and a few other ones and worked for a while in the record business as well as in the independent film industry.
Bob Preston: 04:43 That must be a hard pushing industry. Right? I mean.
Gunilla DeSanto: 04:46 It is, it's very competitive and a, it has changed quite a bit already since I left the industry. So, um, because I decided I just really want to do interior design because that is really what I was born to do so.
Bob Preston: 04:59 That is interesting. I've made a career change along the way too. I used to be in high tech up in Silicon Valley.
Gunilla DeSanto: 05:04 Oh Wow.
Bob Preston: 05:05 And I just got burnt out on the travel, you know, kind of similar, really hard driving industry, highly demanding. Not that this business isn't, but at least I get to stay at home. I mean, I was traveling overseas constantly being away from home and I just got to the point where I want to do something different and my passion kind of like yours has always been in homes, uh, managing the homes, making sure they're well cared for. I'm also a licensed contractor. So, kind of interesting parallels there in terms of recreating ourselves, if you will.
Gunilla DeSanto: 05:33 Yeah. So how the branding and marketing experience, uh, plays into what I do now is that I use that with my passion for interior design, which helps me create or brand these properties so that they attract the right kind of guests. So, before I dive into what our company does, and I wanted to talk a little bit about the current state of the short-term rental industry, which is what you kind of mentioned. So last year it was valued at $100 billion worldwide and at the end of 2019 it's projected to hit about 170 billion.
Bob Preston: 06:09 Yeah, that’s right. It’s growing like crazy.
Gunilla DeSanto: 06:11 Yeah. And so, in 2018 the year over year growth, just in the US have available a short-term rentals rose by a whopping 26% and that was due to, you know, demand. Right. So, with that, however, guests have become choosier and the expect higher end amenities.
Bob Preston: 06:34 Nice. You mentioned, yeah, there's a lot more inventory to choose from, so we can afford to be choose. Yes, and instantaneous too. I mean that's part of the, this Carmel Valley market is changing so much in all these different facets.
Gunilla DeSanto: 06:44 Absolutely. And interestingly enough, the fastest growing segment of the short-term rental market is actually the luxury market, luxury rentals. So, proof in the pudding, AirBnb purchased luxuryretreats.com in 2017 and I'm also lately seen that VRBO is really starting to push to market their luxury listings. Like I, the other day I saw that they were pushing for literally you can rent an island. Or islands, I should say some in the Caribbean, some in Canada, you know, all over the place. So that's, that's really interesting. Another interesting statistic is that the vast majority of travelers prefer to spend their vacations in a coastal rental. As a matter of fact, 83%. That's pretty high, right? And they will spend the most, if they book in an area that's considered a seasonal getaway. So southern California here we have got it in spades, right? We offer it all great weather almost all year round, right? Beautiful coastal towns and numerous popular tourist attractions. So, our expertise at my company, Deluxe Decor by Design is in creating those luxuries and real relaxing vacation experiences because the significant trend travelers now want is experiences over quote unquote things, right?
Bob Preston: 08:08 Right. I mean it's becoming more and more about hospitality and guest experience. I mean is that in line with your thinking?
Gunilla DeSanto: 08:14 Absolutely. In this very prevalent me culture, guests don't want cookie cutter. They dream of having that once in a lifetime. Amazing stay that is tailored to them and they're willing to pay a premium for it. Okay. They want to enjoy all the comforts of home. However, they don't want to feel like they're just staying in somebody else's house with all their most of their personal stuff and all that stuff around the house. They do want a boutique hotel experience still and that is what we help to provide.
Bob Preston: 08:43 Okay. Terrific. Now I think by many clients, at least some of ours, they would consider perhaps interior design an expense line item and may not always see it as necessary, but in fact every owner of a vacation rental is running a business. Correct? And just like any business, there are certain investments you need to make for the desired return, return on investment, ROI if you will. So, can you comment on that aspect and explain your view?
Gunilla DeSanto: 09:13 Yeah, absolutely. It's very true. Um, I think interior design tends to be thought of as an expense, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Updating decor and furnishings is actually an investment that will pay an immediate ROI and actually a very big ROI. And it, it instantly increases the property value. It also increases the rental value that said, when it is done right, and when I say done right, it means knowing what to update, what to not bother with, where to, you know, splurge and where to be more frugal. But interior design increases also, everyone's quality of life may be the most important investment of all.
Bob Preston: 09:56 Well, and look, you know, most of our owners stay there too when they're on vacation, right? I mean, the typical profile for our vacation rental clients are owners who have purchased a property primarily for their own personal enjoyment and their families. And then, gosh, wouldn't it be nice if we could make some money? So, the interior design aspect is also very important just for personal enjoyment.
Gunilla DeSanto: 10:17 Absolutely. You know, in the, in the short-term rental space, decor and a furnishings will. Well, the right decor and furnishings I should say will definitely increase the rental rate.
Bob Preston: 10:27 Well, and also the review rate, I mean there are some things we can’t control but. Right, but if you can control it a positive review will lead to more bookings. I mean, bottom line.
Gunilla DeSanto: 10:38 Absolutely, as a matter of fact, I mean, I can, we can go into it later, but I have some really great war stories of my own and staying in some of the AirBnb’s.
Bob Preston: 10:45 Yeah. A lot of people do who have done that on vacation.
Gunilla DeSanto: 10:48 Absolutely. Absolutely.
Bob Preston: 10:50 So, I'm guessing that your first step might be to when you get a call from a client to go take a look at the property, do a walkthrough, and then start perhaps making some suggestions. Is that right? Is that kind of accurate?
Gunilla DeSanto: 11:19 Yeah, exactly. We start with what we call our a design evaluation and analysis where we do a thorough walkthrough of the entire property, interior and exterior. And then a couple of days after that we provide our clients with a written report and that will include recommendations of next steps.
Bob Preston: 11:37 Sure. Okay. And where do you go from there? What are the additional steps and what, what happens from that point?
Gunilla DeSanto: 11:44 We sit down with a client and we go through our findings and discuss and come up with a plan and what to address and in what order.
Bob Preston: 11:53 Okay. And oftentimes would there be a budget involved that the owner gives you an advance or?
Gunilla DeSanto: 11:58 Yes, obviously a budget or as I like to call it the investment. Yeah, because budget is sort of just a line item on an expense report that doesn't have an ROI, but this actually has a return on investment. Sure. But yes, you know, budget will dictate what can be done. We may find 17 things that we think would benefit from, you know, updating or upgrading, but maybe there's only budget for 10 so let's make sure that we addressed the 10 most important things.
Bob Preston: 12:25 Prioritize. Yeah. Okay, sure. Yeah. And I studied your website a bit and I understand you have different design plans. Can you describe those?
Gunilla DeSanto: 12:32 Yeah, it's basically a tiered plan. We have the Hospitality Design Plan, which mainly concentrates on the bedrooms and bathrooms and the kitchens, which are super important that the very least it should be addressed. And then there is the Boutique Hotel Design Plan, which includes the services and the hotel design, hospitality design plan, and adds a redesign or an upgrade of the kitchens and bathrooms. And then we have the most comprehensive plan, which is the Five-Star Resort Design Plan, which includes everything that I mentioned, plus the outdoor space. Okay. Which is also a hugely important area of any, you know, vacation rental. And then we also have a Design and Refresh Enhancement Plan that just ensures that the property continually looks good.
Bob Preston: 13:21 Wonderful. Okay. So, will you guide your client through this whole process personally? Or do you have people that work for you and then I guess from the initial design plan to the final product, do you have kind of a reveal that takes place at the Carmel Valley rental?
Gunilla DeSanto: 13:34 Oh yeah. That's, I love that. I, the final reveal is so great. Yeah. But yes, we do absolutely manage and guide our, uh our clients through the entire process.
Bob Preston: 13:44 Do you get access to in full control of the home or would my clients still be living there? Cause I mean, that might kind of spoil the reveal a little bit.
Gunilla DeSanto: 13:50 I mean, my ideal set up is always to not have the client in the home the day we do the installations for them to then come and sort of have that HDTV sort of wow. Although, although on HDTV, it just goes and all of a sudden, it's just like done. Meanwhile. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it is very satisfying to see the clients smiles and you know, saying things like, wow, or this is so beautiful and wow, this is amazing. I can't this, this, believe this the same room. And that is my why. That is why I do what I do because I love making people really, really happy.
Bob Preston: 14:33 That's wonderful. Do you ever get into, I mean it sounds like you do if you're bringing in new installs and things like that, general contractors and do you have sort of a go-to ranks of GC’s that you bring in on jobs?
Gunilla DeSanto: 14:45 Yeah. So, first of all, I do love to work and collaborate with other design professionals. So, you know, we at Deluxe Decor by Design do not provide contractor services. So yes, if there, if there are structural changes or construction that is needed, then yes. A GC we need to onboard a GC and yes, we have a few different GC’s that we like to work with, but we are more than happy to work with GC’s that clients may have had previous really good, um, experiences with, so.
Bob Preston: 15:17 Yeah, maybe they've done some degree of remodeling, but now they really want to turn it into this amazing guest experience cause you probably get into things like appliances and new cabinets, new windows, the whole bit, right?
Gunilla DeSanto: 15:28 Yeah. I mean it could be something as simple as not necessarily a complete gut remodel of a bathroom or a kitchen, but just updating the flooring. Maybe putting a new bathroom vanity, maybe putting in a new shower that does not change the footprint, but still requires a GC bringing on board his trades too. You know, the plumbers and carpentry and electricians and etc.
Bob Preston: 15:52 What about some of the other design elements? Just the furnishings and the pillows and the throws and you know what's on the wall, what's hanging on the wall?
Gunilla DeSanto: 16:01 Yeah, absolutely. That is what creates the environment and the atmosphere that make you feel like, ah.
Bob Preston: 16:08 Yeah, I'm here on vacation and I can relax and enjoy in my surrounding.
Gunilla DeSanto: 16:13 One of the things that I like to say is a house is not a home without decor because it is true. I mean, when you just have a structure and there's nothing in there, it doesn't feel like a home. But once you start putting some furnishings and accessories in it, you create an atmosphere, you create a feeling of relaxation or energy. You know, if it's a home office, you need to feel energized or you can be productive and all that stuff. So yeah, this is where you really, the finishing touches is what makes it right.
Bob Preston: 16:45 I love it. I hadn't really thought about asking you this, but I'm going to go for it anyway. What about aromas? Like aroma therapy is kind of a big deal and you know, different sense giving, like you've talked about energy in the office or maybe Ah, when you sit down on the south and you're relaxing, what about that?
Gunilla DeSanto: 17:00 Well, aromas are one of those interesting things that either people love it or they hate it. And so I usually suggest like, fine, if you want to have that, give it, give the guests the options to use it if they choose to, but don't have it on so that when they walk in, because there are people that you know it, it just tickles their nose. It makes allergies come on. So, it's like, that's like not necessarily a good thing.
Bob Preston: 17:27 Yeah, I hate the smell of cinnamon and I wish that wasn’t in this house.
Gunilla DeSanto: 17:32 Exactly, so have it available, but don't burn incense as they walk in or something like that.
Bob Preston: 17:37 So as we're chatting, I'm thinking of all these new questions. I hope that's okay. So, what about family pictures?
Gunilla DeSanto: 17:42 Too many personal items I would suggest against. Just because again, that feel makes you feel like you're staying in somebody else’s house. Too many personal items, including those family photos is, is can be a somewhat of a turn off because people feel like, Ooh, wait a minute. Like, oh this. Yeah, I like that. Or feel awkward.
Bob Preston: 18:02 Yeah, no, I agree. I mean it can kind of go both ways, I've found. And so, it's kind of like the aroma thing. It's probably not worth the risk of having them in the home. I've had some guests say, oh my God, the family, you know, we saw their photo. They seem so nice. You know, we like all their fun activities we’re so much like them so can be good. But it could also be.
Gunilla DeSanto: 18:22 I'm not saying don't have any personal photos or items, but you know, definitely you shouldn't be having photos all over the house and your personal items all over the house. Like you said, sometimes it's like, oh, look at this family. Aren't they sweet? That that also makes them connect. Right? But one of the other things I think, um, in addition to great, you know, comfortable beds we talked about briefly, right? Super-duper important, luxurious bedding, super-duper important because many reviews mention like, oh my gosh, that was the best night's sleep I've had in so long. So that is a really, really big, big factor for people because they, people live, live very stressful lives and etc. But one of the other things, if you really want to stand out and you do want to offer sort of the concierge type services that a hotel does, right? Because we are, we are creating these boutique hotel experiences. So not the obvious ones obviously are great restaurants, good local attractions, shopping and even like urgent care centers, hospitals and that sort of thing for safety information and even your hairdresser, dog walker, that sort of thing. But if you really want to stand out, why don't you have a plate of fresh fruit in season waiting for them when they walk in or the super delicious cupcakes from your local bakery when they walk in. Now you're connecting with the guests and you're like oh look at this, they feel wanted and appreciated.
Bob Preston: 19:51 Yeah, you're making it an experience rather than just to stay in someone else's home. What about the kitchens? You mentioned bedding and you mentioned bathrooms. We find the kitchens are hugely important.
Gunilla DeSanto: 20:01 Yeah. They absolutely are. And they're, there are a couple of different reasons why they are. Um, first of all, you know, they should be fully stocked. Plenty of cookware and plates and cups and glasses and flatware, etc. But also, the cooking basics, like olive oils and the basic spices and aluminum foil and stuff like that. And small of smart appliances are also a big draw. Not a must, but it is a big draw.
Bob Preston: 20:12 What do you mean by smart appliance?
Gunilla DeSanto: 20:13 Anything from the coffee maker to the oven. You know where you can, you can either have your smartphone turn on the oven or you can program it in such a way that you go out, you go to the beach, you do your thing, but then it starts cooking sort of like a slow cooker, but it's a real oven instead. Um, so one of the reasons that the kitchen is so hugely important is that six out of ten households have some kind of food restriction. So, this is the part of the reason why they want to stay in a vacation rental where they have control over what they eat, what they buy. Also, seven out of ten households with kids said that the, you know, a good, well outfitted kitchen was very important to them. And people don't want to feel like they have to eat three meals out every single day because if they did, they would've probably booked a traditional hotel room.
Bob Preston: 21:21 Okay. Any other design elements that you recommend? It seems like we're kind of focusing on kitchens, bedrooms and bathrooms, but are there some specifics there for those three areas of the home?
Gunilla DeSanto: 21:31 Yeah, I mean essentially what you want to do is the bedrooms should feel like five star hotel suites. That is very important. Bathrooms should feel like they're luxurious spas and the kitchens, which we just talked about, should be well equipped then and feel like a gourmet kitchen so that that really entices them to actually use it.
Bob Preston: 21:52 Okay. What about home automation? You mentioned the smart appliances, but what about the thermostat? I don't know what other areas of home automation there might be, but is that a big thing when you start getting into remodeling or redoing a home environment?
Gunilla DeSanto: 22:08 Absolutely. Home automation is becoming more and more popular. And as a matter of fact, one of the statistics that says 60% of guests are actually willing to pay more for rental with smart home technology than one without. Oh, they sure do like their smart TVs and streaming services and Alexa and Google assistant and smart speakers such as Sonos and whatnot. But they, as I said, they also get really excited about some smart home appliances and the upside for the owners of using smart technology, especially for like locks and lights and thermostats will actually also help keep the operating costs down. So, it's a win win for both guests and an owner.
Bob Preston: 22:44 Right. And a security one too, when it comes to the locks and yeah, maybe keyless entry, that kind of thing. Some of the most common questions we get have to do with things like what kind of TV is there, what you know, do you have good Wi-Fi because I'll be working while I'm on vacation and you have a pool or spa, you get into that with owners? It sounds like you do based on some of your comments.
Gunilla DeSanto: 23:05 Absolutely. Smart TV. Yes. Streaming services. Sure. The most important thing about a really good high-speed Wi-Fi, not only high speed but reliable. That is hugely important because um, Wi-Fi as we know or is not just used for working and surfing the web, but streaming movies and who wants to look at a movie that freezes and constantly buffering. That is something that's going to be very irritating to guests.
Bob Preston: 23:37 It's irritating to me when I check into a hotel and they offer free Wi-Fi and then the Wi-Fi is so ridiculously slow or you can't get anything done, you know, what's the point? I mean I find that more knowing than actually having not had it cause I could've just done it with my iPhone anyway.
Gunilla DeSanto: 23:52 Absolutely. And yes, like I said, streaming services are becoming more and more popular. But I always suggest to also offer some kind of cable or fiber optic TV service because there are quite a few people still who like to watch TV old school.
Bob Preston: 24:08 Absolutely. ESPN. Um, you know, MSNBC News, I mean, yeah, no, we get requests for all that. Believe it or not, a lot of people here locally like to watch the racetrack from their home. They come into town instead of going the racetrack, they want to watch it on TV.
Gunilla DeSanto: 24:23 Absolutely. Yeah. And pools, you were asking about pools? Um, yeah. If the property has a pool that obviously is a big draw for the people that book it. So that means that they really like to hang around the pool. And so, we usually suggest definitely plenty of comfortable chairs and chaise, chaises and umbrellas and even some pool gear like floats and maybe water volleyball because people like to have fun and play games.
Bob Preston: 24:53 Right? Yeah, absolutely. And keep the pool clean. Right?
Gunilla DeSanto: 24:56 Oh my gosh, sparkling. Cleanliness in general. I have to tell you is, I mean it's the number one most important thing you can do. I have, we have stayed, my husband and I have stayed in plenty of AirBnb’s where it was either filthy or you know, grossly, you know. Undeserved as far as the kitchen, like no cutting board, no spatulas, no oven mitts. I mean three cups, one coffee spoon and four plates. You know, the brand spanking new shiny espresso, catchy cappuccino maker that was, you know, $750. Yeah, no cleanliness is, is huge. We actually still stayed in an AirBnb where the oven was so filthy that it was literally a fire hazard.
Bob Preston: 25:41 Oh No. I like what you were saying about the outdoor space because I think some owners will underestimate the importance of that. Like, gosh, should I have a barbecue that's included? Of course, the answer is obviously yes, especially during the summer in San Diego. But you seem to highlight the connection between the indoor and the outdoor almost got kind of like ying and yang. Right. Can you talk about that a bit?
Gunilla DeSanto: 26:02 Sure. Yeah. The indoor-outdoor lifestyle is definitely the most sought after. And in Carmel Valley is made for that. Um, living here we can get jaded and we take it for granted. But let's say you're coming from the northeast where winters are cold and snowy, and the summers are very hot and very humid. And then you come here, you think this is paradise. So outdoor dining spaces are literally as important as indoor living spaces. And ideally the exterior should be a natural extension of the interior so that there is a seamless flow between the two. And so that includes plenty of seating for dining and entertaining outside. And of course, no outdoor space is complete without a really great outdoor kitchen or at this very, very least, a super awesome grill.
Bob Preston: 26:53 Yeah, it’s a big. Like I say dining area all that kind of stuff.
Gunilla DeSanto: 26:56 Yeah, enjoy the sunset or just entertain or having some aperitifs before dinner while you're cooking those steaks on that grill.
Bob Preston: 27:06 Okay. So, you're here with me in Del Mar a, what's your geographical coverage? How far will you travel for a job, I guess? If anybody is listening from another, another city, if not the part of California, maybe even other parts of the country?
Gunilla DeSanto: 27:18 Yeah. So, my main area for, for now, and it's open for expansion, but, uh, mainly sandy coastal, San Diego and Orange County. I have actually also been approached to work on some properties in Hawaii, so.
Bob Preston: 27:30 Wow. That'd be fun. Yeah. Talk about indoor outdoor.
Gunilla DeSanto: 27:33 Yeah, my goodness. Wow.
Bob Preston: 27:36 Very great. One of the interesting things is we get a lot of snowbirds coming into town during the winter, so we here locally in San Diego might think, wow, the weather's not so great, but to the people coming in from Calgary or you know, parts of Canada or you know, Michigan or something during the winter, they just love it here. And so, they're, they're here to play golf, to be outside and they love even during the winter, that outdoor kind of extended space.
Gunilla DeSanto: 28:01 Absolutely.
Bob Preston: 28:02 Well this has been so much fun. I'd love to continue this conversation because I'm passionate about it too. And I have so many other questions, but we're kind of running out of time here. And so, I guess if you have any other parting comments or thoughts about your business or what you'd like to say to our listeners. Anything in parting.
Gunilla DeSanto: 28:18 Yeah, just a little bit more about the industry in itself. This is, this is a business after all that a, the industry has grown, as you said, exponentially in the last handful of years. And AirBnb, which of course is the 800-pound gorilla in this space, currently owns 20% of the consumer lodging market, which is, they spent more on AirBnb than Hilton last year. So that's a pretty impressive numbers. And actually VRMB.com predicts that the short-term rental industry will topple the hotel industry by end of 2020 interesting. So that's why property management companies like yours and interior design companies like mine, become an integral part for owners and investors to bring their Carmel Valley vacation rentals up to the level they need to be in order to stand out in a competitive marketplace.
Bob Preston: 29:06 Very good. And if someone wanted to learn more about your business Deluxe Decor by Design, how would they reach you and where could they find out more about your business?
Gunilla DeSanto: 29:15 Well, best place to start would be our website, which is deluxedecorbydesign.com and you can also email us at email@example.com.
Bob Preston: 29:30 Perfect. Okay. Everyone hear that reach out to Gunilla and get her tips and engage her as a consultant. She's fantastic. Well thank you so much Gunilla for taking time to join the show today. Very much appreciated that you took the time to come over and also do this in person. A lot of our guests are by telephone or by zoom. You came over here face-to-face, which is always fun. That concludes today's episode. So, I would like to make a quick plug to post a positive review for the Property Management Brainstorm and we'll make our day and pay it forward to encourage more great guests like Gunilla on the show. Thank you to all our listeners for joining the show today and until next time we will be working hard in the field for our clients to maximize property value and rental income and tenant relations. See you next time.